03.01.07
Tigole on Hybrids
From my original post on the druid forums:
Recently some questions were posted on the general forums that were answered by Tigole. Thread here. Of particular note are questions 5 and 6 regarding the role of hybrids:
5) Healers. 40 mans seemed to be designed around something like 35% healers. Scaling that to 25 mans means 8 healers. R&J in Kara seems to require at least 3 main healers + 1 hybrid. The problem is very few people actually enjoy being healers. The prayer of mending nerf is just salt in the wound. It is very hard to find enough healers - I’d love to see 25 man content tuned for 6 dedicated healers and maybe 2 hybrids healing on healing intensive fights.
6) Tanks. We were planning on bringing 3 warriors and 3 druids to raids - 2 prot tanks, 1 fury, 1 feral tank, 1 cat, 1 resto druid. The Druid tanking nerf is extreme - I think it basically makes bears worthless against bleed immune mobs (all of Karazhan and likely much more), and their mitigation/HP worse than warriors, especially once T4/T5 becomes common and bears are still in quest greens. This means we’ll bring 3 prot tanks, 1 cat, and 1 resto. Maybe a pally OT. As a guild leader I really like the option of having more than one class be a viable MT, but with the druid nerf and warrior buff I don’t think I can justify anything but warrior tanks.
Tigole’s response to questions 5 and 6:
I don’t really agree with points 5 and 6 but I do feel like your previous points all had merit. Hopefully, the changes I mentioned will alleviate some of your worries.
What do you think? Looks to me like a shocking dismissal of the concerns of hybrids, as if it is intended that hybrids have no role in 25 man raid but to be full time healers.
Dejablue said,
March 2, 2007 at 7:51 pm
First, I would like to thank you for all of your posts and calculators as they ahve been extremely helpful in allowing me to not only be confident in myself as a tank but to convince my raids to give me the opportunity to tank.
You are always dead on and back up your posotions with cold hard math and dead on explainations and even extremes of using emulators with your calculators.
For that I am very grateful:)
If I could have one wish for WoW it would be that Blizard were to pay you a couple 3 Million to join their team and actually run the numbers and test this stuff. I realize it may not matter, that issues such as pandering to the masses, warriors, to keep them happy while having a much lower monetary risk keeping Druids very unhappy, ignoring long term effects on the game of course. Or the very likely axes that may be grinding due to warriors sorry state in eqs past http://www.thesteelwarrior.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4109
Vanguard is looking better every day. Bugs you say, well how about entire broken classes. If I am gonna start over may as well be in the real raid games instead of the uber raid leaders wet dreams where they stik it to all the hybrids taht took their jobs for so long in EQ and the whiney casuals that were in their way and annoyed their highness. Lets give em hope year and take it away lolol.
his flippant attitude toward the hybrid problem showcases the problems internally at Blizzard. it really appears outwardly that he is intent and hellbent on only doing raid content and not dealing with stupid things like makign them balanced so as to include hybrids or be fun for healers or to be accessible to casuals. No he is the prima donna arteeeest. Feral Druids and their ccomplaints, and how dare a casual not like my uber hard Gruul’s Lair. Damn I will ahve to nerf it I guess Me and OT 13 healrs and 10 dpsers wont bow before me. Ill actually have to think of somethign other than tank and spank.. hmmmm oo looky there shes got some tigole bitties…./droooool
Dejablue said,
March 3, 2007 at 9:42 am
Maybe we should organise a Stand Down of our own?
Like this(As linked above):
Fellow Druids,
I know that I’m no formal leader of the Druid community. I’d love to see someone like Furor or Tigole take this up, but still I can’t stand by and watch this anymore without taking action!
After years of watching us erode into what we are now. Years of seeing the parses, the breakdowns, the explanations of how sad balance and particularly our class has become. Here’s where I personally am at on this:
I’m willing to be banned to make a statement!
If you are as upset about our situation as I am, then lets do this:
On Tuesday, March the 6th, beginning at 9AM (EST) lasting until 9PM (EST) Druids of all levels will stage a STAND DOWN at or around the Ironforge AH Bridge on all Servers.
- We will bag our weapons, save for Druid Epic (a ceremonial weapon of decoration). If you have the Warden Staff or Earthwarden, please wield it for this event.
- We will /join Hybridstanddown
- We will /report /afk the same message: “I am a Druid/Paladin/Shaman/Priest. Hear my plea. I demand a statement be issued concerning Tank, Healing and Hybrid balancing! Until then, I will stand here and wait.”
- We will /lfg in all instances with autojoin off using the LFG window to use the message text of: Standing Down
- We will periodically notify the zone of our purpose using /y or /general, but will ignore hecklers globally addressing them via /tell or in channel only.
** Recommended Yell text: “Today we STAND DOWN in defiance of the tanking healing and hybrid imbalance that exists, and has existed, in Azeroth and Outlands. May Malfurion strengthen our plea to Elune!”
** Recommended General text: “HYBRID TANKS, HYBRIDS AND HEALERS STAND DOWN! /join Hybridstanddown! BALANCE THE CLASSES!”
- We will allow access to the Bank, AH and Gridffon (if we don’t WOW staff will remove us from the zone and possibly from the game)
- Any GM communication that originates should be directed toward /join Hybridstanddown which will be moderated by leaders of the Druid community.
* STANDING DOWN previous to the event on the 6th *
A surprising number of us are already STANDING DOWN. If you don’t want to wait for the 2.0.10 patch and wish to show support starting NOW here are the variations upon instructions above:
- We will /AFK the same message: “HYBRID TANKS, HYBRIDS AND HEALERS STAND DOWN! /join Hybridstanddown BALANCE THE CLASSES! goto http://tangedyn.9tribes.net/tigole-on-hybrids to sign up!
- We will periodically notify the zone of our purpose using Shout or General, but will ignore hecklers globally addressing them via /tell or in channel only.
** Recommended SHOUT text: “The time is coming, soon few will become many. The Gods can ignore our call for only so long. The STAND DOWN approaches…”
** Recommended OOC text: “HYBRID TANKS, HYBRIDS AND HEALERS STAND DOWN! /join Hybridstanddown BALANCE THE CLASSES! go to HYBRID TANKS, HYBRIDS AND HEALERS STAND DOWN to sign up!”
What are we after?:
- Acknowledgment of the existence of a Hybrid Tanking, Hybrid and Healing class imbalance.
- Clear statement that the imbalance will be corrected, with a best guess of timeline.
- The acknowledgement and statement(s) must be posted in the following locations (offhanded remarks by Tseric or Tigole have not and will not generate results!):
PTR Forums - Upcoming Updates
Test Realm Patch Notes
What is wrong with hybrid tanks, hybrids and healers? What do you suggest be done?:
- For Paladin, Shaman and Priests concerns, please visit their forums to discern their imbalances:
Paladin
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?sid=1&forumId=10018
Shaman
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?sid=1&forumId=10021
Priest
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/board.html?sid=1&forumId=10019
- As for Druids, we have many items of concern. Most recently a prime example of our problems are most easily summed up by the “Who needs Druids anyway?” attitude of the past 2 years. All end game encounters previously thought to be War tankable only were made to ba tankable by Drudis and Paladins with BC so more people can raid and not ahve to rely on one tanking class. After the patch anything a Warrior can successfully tank, they will immediately become the preferred tank because of the reliability of their Aggro generation. We obviously are the 3rd or 4th preferred Exp grouping tank. Now we are becoming the 3rd preferred Raid tank. Itemization and boosts to Warriors have brought them within a couple hundred HP of us, and equal or greater AC So what really is our advantage (Advantage?)?
- The mission of this STAND DOWN is not to make precise demands, mainly to boost knowledge and awareness of the hybrid tanks, hybrids and healers class imbalance and motivate Blizz to address the problem. However, many suggestions have been made within the following threads and all over the Druid forums:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79208803&sid=1
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=79819909&sid=1
If you don’t want to use your Main, then create a newbie Druid to do the STAND DOWN. If your friends want to join the cause, encourage them to also create a newbie Druid. Use all your accounts, turn-out is important for this to work!
If you are in support and will join the cause, please respond and help us spread the word!
Various WOW News sites will be notified of the STAND DOWN
Dejablue said,
March 3, 2007 at 10:38 am
Join the Tanking, Hybrid and Healing STAND DOWN.
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=21;mid=1172935265322376256;num=2;page=1
http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/general-news/1012/tanking-hybrid-and-healing-stand-down/
soylantgreen said,
March 3, 2007 at 11:14 am
I’m a 70 Feral, or was. Canceled my account a few days ago. I’ve been playing my Druid since release, don’t really have any alts to speak of. I don’t trust Blizz anymore. Even if they came back and undid a few of the most extreme nerfs to bears I wouldn’t come back.
I’ve read all the data from your posts and others, this Tigole guy sure sounds an awful lot like the leet gamer artiste J.P. from that movie Grandma’s Boy. Maybe he should get out in the sun a little bit? Make a few friends that don’t live in Azeroth?
Dejablue said,
March 3, 2007 at 1:25 pm
Ya man here is some more info:
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showpost.php?p=206834&postcount=32
heres the whole thread:
http://forums.ageofconan.com/showpost.php?p=206834&postcount=32
I find it extremely distateful that a lead designer has an avatar on teh official forums with the name Tigole Bitties. Isnt that sexual discrimination man, I know I would think so if I worked there and I certainly wouldnt feel the need to use that name, especially if I had actually grown up.
The fact that he has kept the name shows he is using it for reccognition, some kind of showing all teh other uber guilds who is who. Dunno man just rubs me the wrong way always has its such a poor choice on Blizzes part and extreme in a professional setting let along a huge worldwide game such as world of warcraft.
Axes to grind man im sure hes getting a kick out of it. And as mentioned before the whole passive aggressive approach of “I design raids I dont balance classes” shows a total alck of respect for everyone, the otherr devvs, showing he isnt going to work with them they will ahve to design around him, the CM and moderators and ultimately teh players, he basically dictates what classes are going to raid and those that arent by his raid designs, even if he doesn’t actually balance the classes.
I ahve cancelled my account as well. I may start up again to participate in teh STAND DOWN
http://wow-en.curse-gaming.com/general-news/1012/tanking-hybrid-and-healing-stand-down/
http://wow.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=21;mid=1172935265322376256;num=7;page=1
but after that I dont know man, my guild wants me to stay, may play my shaman or mage, but I will miss my druid so much.:/
Tippor said,
March 4, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Please change the date. Tuesday is not a good day for this type of demonstration. It makes people skeptical about sincerity by choosing maintenence day for this. Wednesday or tomorrow would be better.
tangedyn said,
March 4, 2007 at 10:17 pm
I won’t be able to support the stand down, but I wish everyone the best of luck in trying to help make Blizzard see the errors in what they are doing.
Dejablue said,
March 7, 2007 at 10:02 am
I would appreciate someone picking his up and posting to the Druid forums for me, please.
Fellow Druids,
The STAND DOWN scheduled for Wednesday, March 7th will now instead be a celebration of Tanking, Hybrid and Healing unity.
Instead of Standing Down and refusing to tank or heal or perform hybrid roles within groups on Wednesday, March 7th, I urge everyone to STAND UP and be counted once again as a Tank, as a Healer, as a Furry or Feathery Damage Dealer- and to show all of Azeroth and all of Outland our strength and tenacity.
So on this day let us gather in Ironforge and in Orgrimmar. Let us all join in on the LFG tool for our favorite instances and group with whomever wishes to encounter the most dangerous foes in Azeroth and Outland with our great might.
Upon victory let us then return to Ironforge and Orgrimmar and take part once again in the revelry of Druids there. Let us also support our brothers in arms the Paladin, the Shaman and the Priest while there, as they may still need our assistance and may still be partaking of the Stand Down to clarify their voice as well. So, let us be ever vigilant to that end, just as we are for our own.
This is not a victory over Blizzard Entertainment. This is not a victory for Druids. This is not a victory for justice or a right of exhistance. This is a watershed for World of Warcraft.
For the Horde….
For the Alliance…
No my friends,
For Azeroth.
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